Mac Question Session: Red, Yellow, Green

Friday, Jan. 28 2005 | Author: Scrivs

This is one of those things where the answer might be totally obvious, but it continues to elude me. I also know that I am attempting to use the Windows UI paradigm inside the OS X environment. With that said I still need to hear the logic behind why things work like this.

For every application there are 3 buttons in the upper-left corner.

Yellow minimizes and does so correctly because it has a ‘-’ on it when you hover over it. Green maximizes and does so correctly because it has a ‘+’ on it when you hover over it. When you hover over the red button you get an ‘X’ which leads me to believe that you are closing the application. Apparently though you are just closing the window and not the application, which I guess means that OS X uses a ‘window’ paradigm in comparison to Windows which uses a full application-type paradigm.

If that’s not the case then why when I click on the red button the window closes but the application is still ‘active’?

This is a series that began here

Category: Uncategorized

25 Responses for "Mac Question Session: Red, Yellow, Green"

Bryan Peters

January 28th, 2005 at 10:15 am
1

I’m having the same problem: understanding this concept. The first time I closed iTunes it bothered me because the music was still playing. So now I use Option-Q to quit the app. It still bugs me though…
Jeremy Flint

January 28th, 2005 at 10:20 am
2

Yes, you have to use the Command (apple key) + Q to actually close the program. It may seem annoying when using single window applications like iTunes, but when you are working on several photoshop documents or multiple word documents, it is really handy.

I also like the fact that, especially in photoshop, all the windows are free floating, and you don’t have that large grey background behind everything.
Jeremy Flint

January 28th, 2005 at 10:23 am
3

Now that I think of it, that is probably something that Ars should have included in their MacMini primer that I posted about yesterday.
Scrivs

January 28th, 2005 at 10:37 am
4

I am sure there will be times that I find it handy, but it still doesn’t explain why I have to do it. I mean it’s like I have to quit the application twice each time. I guess I just need to get into that habit of ignoring the window and going to the ‘taskbar’ to quit the application.
Derek

January 28th, 2005 at 10:40 am
5

Yeah it’s just per window. I love it personally.

I always use Cmd + W to close windows and Cmd + Q to close programs though.

I like it because you can leave things like Safari or Mail open, without having a window there taking up space. They are still in memory so they open a lot quicker than if I quit and start the app each time.
JC

January 28th, 2005 at 10:56 am
6

actually, the green one doesn’t maximize properly… at least, not the way a windows user would expect. At least for browsers, it will make your browser as wide as it needs to be to display the content in it without scroll bars… but it won’t make it the full width of the screen unless it has to. And height… I still haven’t figured out how it determines that, because I almost always have to stretch it out to make it bigger.

To add to the confusion, there are some apps that hitting the red bead will close completely. Windows Media Player, for example, and … I forget the name, the app I use to test for hotspots and their strength.
Jeremy Flint

January 28th, 2005 at 11:01 am
7

MacStumbler?

Yeah, I usually ignore the red button all together and go with command+q and command+w.
eric

January 28th, 2005 at 11:11 am
8

It might help to know the history of Mac OS. In the early versions (up through System 5, I think), only one application could be open at a time, so windows that belonged to different applications never existed on the same screen at once.

Load times for applications were slow, especially since the first macs had no hard drives and loading everything off floppies. You could very well want to close all your windows without quiting the program you are in.

Not to say that having a global menu bar affixed to the top of the screen is simply a historical artifact. You always know where your menubar is, no matter what application you are in. Getting to it is very fast too, all you have to do is fling your cursor to the top of the screen.

Of course, a lot of Applications actually do quit when you close all their windows. Not everyone follows the Apple HIG (sometimes not even Apple themselves).

This link is for developers, but it might be helpful:

http://developer.apple.com/ue/switch/windows.html#useASingleMenubar
Brian Fox

January 28th, 2005 at 11:14 am
9

It is a paradigm shift for most Windows users, however it is a consistency thing. Because in windows, when you open up 5 Internet Explorer windows you really have 5 instances of that program running (yuck!)…whereas on the Mac you have ONE program running with 5 windows. So, if clicking the red button when you had 5 windows open closed the application, most people would consider that abnormal. It just takes a little different mindeset.. there are few times when one needs to actually quit their program, but in those times try using some of the keyboard shortcuts (like APPLE (or command as it is called) + Q to quit)
mac user

January 28th, 2005 at 11:15 am
10

Poor users, contaminated by Winblows… Please recall that the Mac UI came first. Windows multiple-document-interface is a poor imitation of the way good applications should behave.
Jeff Croft

January 28th, 2005 at 11:44 am
11

There are certainly advantages to both approaches, but even as a die hard Mac fan, I have to admit that Apple’s inplementation is confusing. In a number of Mac apps (even Apple ones), closing the only or last window open in an application DOES quit the program — but in others, it does not.

I do believe there are performance gains by, as Brian said, having only one instance of the program running with multiple windows, rather than multiple instances.

What it boils down to this is: that little red “x” doesn’t quit your program — it closes your window. If you only have one window active in a particlar application, there is a possibilitiy that closing it will also quit the application. But, most of the time it will not, and you wil still need to Cmd-Q or File>Quit to get it out of memory.

It’s definitely confusing — and I grew up on macs.
Brian Arnold

January 28th, 2005 at 11:45 am
12

Quote:

Apparently though you are just closing the window and not the application, which I guess means that OS X uses a ‘window’ paradigm in comparison to Windows which uses a full application-type paradigm.

I would phrase it the other way around. OS X is application-centric, and the window is merely an interface to the application. Windows is window-centric, as the application is depending on having a GUI up front.

You can get similar actions going in Windows using Java. If you don’t write your Java application right, you can hit the big X in the upper-right to close the window, but leave the application running. I’ve done it before and been very confused by it. :D
Jeremy Flint

January 28th, 2005 at 12:08 pm
13

I have used a Mac to some extent since college. Our video editing is done on a G4 using Media100. Up until I got my powerbook, I had an iMac sitting on my desk.

I can see how new-comers from the windows world would be confused by this.

I think the fact that applications like Windows Media Player exists when you close the window is just an example of Microsoft trying to build their software the same way on both platforms, when both platforms are really completely different in the way they handle applications and their GUI.
Dylan

January 28th, 2005 at 12:29 pm
14

OSX completely handled like 99.99% of everything that kept me from using Macs. However, there is still that .01% that bugs me. It doesn’t stop me from using OSX and liking it, but these drive me crazy:

http://mboffin.com/post.aspx?id=1306

and…

http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/02/16/os-x

The second is what sparked my post and is LOADED with those little niggling things a Windows user will run into.
Jeremy Flint

January 28th, 2005 at 2:07 pm
15

I will say that one thing that does bother me about OS X is that when I am tabbing through a form on a site, it skips right over any drop-down lists (for a state, for instance).

At least, that is how it is in Firefox, not sure about safari or other Mac browsers.
Garrett

January 28th, 2005 at 2:23 pm
16

In Windows, with Photoshop for example, you have the same concept. You can close a document window without quitting the application. The only difference is that the Mac doesn’t keep a blank grey area on the window.

So really, cmd-w and ctrl-w do the same thing, which is close the inner window. It just doesn’t “feel” like an inner window on the mac because the parent window is treated / behaves more transparently.
Jeff Croft

January 28th, 2005 at 2:51 pm
17

Good point, Garret.

The difference, though, is in single-window applications. For example, take Thunderbird. There is only one windw — and thus, no “inner” and “parent.” On Windows, when you close the one window, Thunderbird is quit. On Mac, when you close the one Window, Thunderbird keeps running — just without a present GUI.

I think there are advantages to both system and don’t necessarily favor one over the other — what bugs me about Apple’s setup is that it’s not consistenent. There are some apps that definitely quit when you close the last (or only) window. I’m at a PC right now and can’t name them off the top of my head, but they do exist, and many of them are even Apple’s own programs. Address Book comes to mind as one I think quits when you close the window (but like I said, I can’t verify that right now). GarageBand presents yet another paradigm: when you close the window in it, a mandatory open dialog box pops up, forcing you to open another file. So, what it boils down to is this:

- In most applications, you can close all window, but the app remains running.
- In some, when you close the last window, the app quits.
- In at least one (GarageBand), when you close the last window (which, in this case, is a song file), you get an “open” dialog making you open another song.

It’s just not consistent. It bugs me (even though, like I said, I’m a Mac-lover).
Scott

January 28th, 2005 at 5:20 pm
18

This discussion reminded me of an article I read a while back about another Apple UI issue… the dock.

http://www.asktog.com/columns/044top10docksucks.html
Sage Olson

January 28th, 2005 at 7:31 pm
19

The yellow button minimizes the window (not the app!); the green button maximizes the window, not the app; thus, the red button closes the window, not the app.

It makes perfect sense. :-)
Wayne

July 10th, 2005 at 3:19 pm
20

Sure it makes perfect sense…if you’re an ass-hat!
John H

August 31st, 2005 at 11:27 am
21

Brian Fox’s comments don’t really convince me.

1) “A consistency thing” — but it’s NOT consistent. The System Preferences app, for example, closes when you hit the red button.

2) Maybe Internet Explorer has one instance for each window, but there are plenty of Windows applications that do not. Firefox is one application, which closes when you close the last window. Many Windows applications run in the system tray, and stay there when you close the window.

However, I find the red button’s behaviour far more predicatable than the green button’s.
Rem

July 10th, 2006 at 12:20 pm
22

Internet Explorer (which I personally dislike) will actually only run as seperate instances if you re-run the program through the executable. If you hit Ctrl+N or go to File -> New Window then it will open a new window running under the same instance.

As for Photoshop it can run very similarly to the Mac version and I see no purpose to not have the grey area in the background, it kind of annoys me when I can see other things to distract my attention.
inside

March 18th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
23

Sorry people.
inside

March 18th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
24

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Björn

March 25th, 2007 at 10:56 am
25

I have know the “problem” ever since I’ve bought my first Mac, which was running OS9.

The idea behind it is that you can simply close any window without having the application quit. I know that - especially for used-to-be PC users - this seems to be a strange concept, but actually I like the fact that e.g. I can close my iTunes window without the music stopping. Otherwise I would only be able to minimise the window and thus filling up my dock with minimised windows.

But, admittedly, there are a lot of other applications that I would just like to quit completely as soon as the last window is closed, just like on a PC.

Back on OS9 there used to be an incredibly smart thing called “QuitIt”, which was a freeware application which did just that. You could even set the applications it should quit on window close and which not, even with confirmation messages. Very handy.

Unfortunately an OSX version was never released and honestly I still miss it sometimes.

The workaround: I use Butler, setting a simple shortcut - F1 in my case - to quit the front application. I got so used to it that the above mentioned “problem” is no longer an issue…

Björn